Compiled by Laurie Smithen Kraybill, March 2003
Page Updated June 10, 2003
Florence St. Leger was born about 1425 and her second marriage to John Brockman led to our lineage. I have previously compiled (to the best of what I found available) our St. Leger to Smithen heritage (ref. Robertus De Vilapari Sancto Leodegario) which led to Florence's father; Sir John St. Leger. I went back to our Florence and tried to investigate her mother's side; Marjorie (Margery, Margerie…) Donet. How great to trace Marjorie and ultimately connect to another listed companion of William the Conqueror whose name was (Robert) Picot De Say! The St. Leger and De Say families are listed on the battle rolls of barons and lords. Both family lines were knights.
Whether you take interest in some of our forefathers partaking in the Norman Conquest, Magna Charta or being landlords, barons, knights, etc., it certainly creates sparks of curiosity in history!
My Uncle Malcolm Smithen asked me; "Not only is it more interesting to find out about their lives (rather that born/died dates) but wouldn't it be note worthy to also add significant health ailments &or cause of death for DNA reasons?" I agree. Let's try to add this to our genealogy records for future generations.
In my meager attempt to add to Malcolm's "Scratching the Surface" Book, allow me take you back another 400 years (11 generations) from Florence St Leger (1400's) on her mothers side to: Lord (Robert) Picot De Say (later Saye). His father was Robert FitzPicot, born ABT.1000, of Say, Normandy, France.
The following is extracted from "The Conqueror and His Companions" by J.R. Planche, Somerset Herald, London: Tinsley Bros. 1874
"Cil de Saie," mentioned by Wace (1.13,712) is supposed to be Picot de Say, one of a family deriving their name from Say, near Argentan, the lords of which were vassals of Roger de Montgomeri in Normandy (France) as well as subsequently in England.
In 1060, Robert Picot de Say, Adeloyse his wife, their sons Robert* and Henri, and Omelin de Say and Avitia his wife, were benefactors to the Church of St. Martin of Seez, and in Domesday we find Picot de Say registering holding under Earl Roger twenty-nine manors (enough room for all of us today!) in Shropshire. In 1083 he was amongst the barons invited by the Earl to witness his foundation of the Abbey of Shewsbury. He had probably followed his feudal lord to England in 1067, and would not, therefore, in that case have been at Senlac; but, at the same time some of the family might have been in the invading army, as Wace has represented Roger de Montgomeri as a leader in it, he would be likely to name one of his principal vassals as fighting in his company. Picot appears to have been the hereditary name of the family, it being sometimes used by itself, as in the instance of Picot Vicecomes, or Picot of Cambridge, one of the founders of the Priory of Barnwell, or with a baptismal name prefixed to it, as in that of Robert Picot of Say above mentioned." (www.patpnyc.com/conq/picotsay.shtml)
We also find Picot de Saye listed in the Companions of Duke William (www.geneology web.com/norman.htm) & Robert Picot de Saye b. ABT 1022, lived in Saye, Normandy, France ("Our Folk" by Albert Thomas Hart -1972 www.aritek.com/hartgen/htm/de-saye.htm).
Born 1058 d.1098 born in Say, Normandy, France.
This is where I think some family researchers may have confused him with his father, as they have listed this Robert married to Adeloyse &endash; the same name as his mother. But I believe this is the Robert de Say as mentioned above with his siblings, Henri and Omelin.
But we know Robert de Say had a son :
Born ABT 1075 (depending on research).
William married Agnes de Grentemesnil. She was born ABT 1070-76 and lived in Hinckley, Leicestershire, Eng. Her Father was Hugh Grentemesnil and her mother was Alice (Adeliza) de Beaumont.
They had a son :
Born ABT 1100 died Aug 1144 in Burwell Castle, Lincoln , England.
William married Beatrix de Mandeville who was born ABT 1105 in Mandeville, Normandy, France and died 19 APR 1197 while living in Rickling, Essex, Eng. Beatrix was 1st married (divorced) to Hugh de Talbot. Her Father was William de Mandeville and her Mother was Margeret de Rio.
They had a son :
Born ABT 1135 - died 1214.
Notes (Burke's Peerage under Baron Saye and Seele) He married 1st Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and 2nd married Alice daughter of Aubrey de Vere (1st Earl of Oxford).
They had a son :
Born ABT 1155 in Essex, Eng. Died 19 Aug 1230.
He married Alice de Chesney, born ABT 1165 in Newtimber, Sussex, daughter of John de Casinento/Chesney/de Quesnay family. Geoffrey was one of the barons who opposed King John in 1215 which resulted in the Magna Charta. Geoffrey is listed as one of the 25 "Surety Barons" for the enforcement of the abrogated Magna Charta (all excommunicated by Pope Innocent). Of the 25 signatories, 16 died within 15 years.
Notes (Burke's Peerage): Geoffrey, born c1155; in 1210(?) was in Ireland with King John's Army, one of the barons (magnates rather than peers of Parliament) opposed to John and one of the 25 assigned to see that the Magna Charta was observed, pilgrim to Holy Land 1219; Married 1st Alice, daughter of John de Chesney and widow of Hugh de Periers; married 2nd in or after 1225 Margery (divorce12__), sister of William Briwere and widow of (a) ? de la Ferte and (b) Eudes de Dammertin (died 1225), and died in Poitou just Aug. 1230, leaving (presumably by his 1st wife) William, with a younger son (Geoffrey?).
Geoffrey de Say II, s & h of Geoffrey I, gr. S. William I, b. probably c1155, lord of West Greenwich, co. Kent, Magna Charta Surety, 1215, d. in Poitou shortly bef. 26 Aug. 1230, bur. Hosp. of St. Mary, Dover; m. (1) Alice, widow of Hugh de Periers, d. 1175, and poss daughter of John de Chesney, m (2) aft 1225, Marjorie, widow 1st of William de la Ferte, d. 1216, 2nd of Eudes de Dammartin, d. 1225, daughter and eventual coheir of William de Briwere, the elder, d. 1226, lord of Horsley, co. Derby. Geoffrey and Marjorie were divorced. She was living 1233, died 1237.
They had a son :
Born ABT. 1207 - Died 1272
Married Mary.
They had a daughter :
Reported to have been born in Street, Sussex, Eng. ABT 1250
She Married Sir Alexander de Cheney (aka Cheyne & Cheny) who was born in 1248 in Newtimber, Sussex, Eng. and died in 1295. His father was also Alexander Cheney born 1218.
They had a son ( the eldest son was William Cheney) :
Born 1270 (or 1304 in Street, Sussex) Died 12 APR 1362 (or died 1363)
Note: He was the successor of Sir Alexander rather than William who died in 1335. Robert married Margeria heiress of Sir Robert de Shurland of Sheppy (Shurland house, Eastchurch, Kent). She was born ABT 1281. Robert adopted the Shurland arms, azure, six lioncels rampant argent, a canton ermine. In 1346 he was to contribute some monies towards the Black Prince assessed in the Hundred of Bregge (Bridge?). Also became known as Sir Robert of Shurland Castle in Sheppy.
They had a son :
Born 1352 in Shurland, Kent (of Shurland House, East Church, Kent). Died ABT 1380
He married Margeret (Margery) de Cralle (born ABT.1356 in Cralle Manor, Worbleton, Sussex ).
Note: Margeret (who with 3 half sisters was coheiress' of their grandfather's Symon Peplesham's estates. Symon was born ABT 1317 in Peplesham, Sussex and married Joane Rowse (born ABT 1326 in Hamp. Eng.). Symon's Father was Stephen Peplesham born about 1278. Margeret's Mother was also Margaret but Margaret Peplesham, born ABT 1341 in Cralle, Warbleton, Sussex. Margeret's father was Robert de Cralle born abt. 1334 in Cralle, Warbleton, Sussex.
Richard Cheney and Margaret (Peplesham) had two sons and a daughter named Margaret.
Their daughter :
Born 1377
Married James Donet (Donnet) of Rainham.
Their Daughter :
Married Sir John St. Leger (refer to Robertus De Vilapari Sancto Leodegario line)
Their daughter was Florence St. Leger.
And the lineage goes on ...
PS: On behalf of all genealogists and novice family researchers such as myself, please refrain from naming your issue the same name as your own or your close relatives. A "given" name is important for future record search ease. Another example of genealogy tomfoolery is my father "Sherman" and my Uncle "Charlie"! I was an adult before I learned that they used their "middle names"; Arthur and Malcolm.
" It seems just years and years ago
We put the order in, you know
What ever it be, "our girl" or "our boy"
We'll be so happy, and full of joy.
Our friend who live so near, will see
The first strong limb on our family tree
We'll shape this tree, so big and strong
And we'll add more limbs, as the years roll on."
More to come. Feedback and corrections welcome!
Laurie Kraybill
Back to http://www.jcameron.com/personal/smithen/index.htm for family pictures.